Oh, we’re not all agreed? Some don’t see any substance to patriotism, or at least not as an election issue. And others see substance, but they may be like Tim who questions how patriotism should be expressed.
Okay, let’s say the President should be patriotic. It seems many people, even on the left, don’t want to deny the President should be patriotic, or don’t want the President to deny that he’s a patriot. But then what?
Following Tim’s lead (who commented on the previous post), we can ask, how should he express it? What is satisfactory expression of one’s patriotism? And what’s the standard for judging this? Does wearing a little flag pin count? Does a Glenn-Beck-show-size flag prove it? How many “patriotism points” is enough? Does questioning the patriotism of one’s opponent prove it? Oh, wait … have I blundered?
Everybody knows that questioning another’s patriotism, asking for proof, is poor form. Lurking in the background is that saying. You know, it is said that “patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel,” as though discussion of patriotism is for muckraking scoundrels. As Obama said, talk of someone’s patriotism “poisons” debate.
Why not talk substance? Isn’t that what started the questions about Obama? You know, he said he chose to show his “true patriotism” by speaking out about national security rather than with “that pin.” (And then Time reported he decided it wasn’t an either-or question and began wearing that pin. )
Obviously wearing pins doesn’t solve anything. It certainly wouldn’t lower gas prices. And what kind of person would prefer to have everyone wearing “that pin” than have lower gas prices?
And, yes, were I in some kind of place in which everyone wore the uniform of the pin, I might have reason to be concerned. After all, totalitarians enforce uniformity. Hitler enforced patriotism. He was a great cheerleader with a 1,000 year vision for Germany….
Is patriotism akin to national socialism? is it something to be avoided?
An American might wonder if liberals or “progressives” don’t see patriotism as something to be avoided because of an association of patriotism with nationalism. Over at the WP, E. J. Dionne Jr. felt a need to issue the warning that “progressives should not assume that patriotism is somehow a bad thing, akin to jingoism or nationalism.” He continued, “The reaction of too many progressives to patriotism is ‘automatic, allergic recoil,’ say two young ["progressive"] Seattle writers, Eric Liu and Nick Hanauer, in their important book The True Patriot.”
A less friendly observation about progressives and patriotism came from Jonah Goldberg. He referred to The Nation’s characterization of Americans as less than flattering. (You can find a response here with a third party rejoinder here and a dialog here.) And that reference to The Nation reminds me….
After the first Gulf War, The Nation had a symposium on patriotism. They recognized the left had a problem with patriotism–not that the left isn’t patriotic. And the numerous authors wrote short pieces on what patriotism meant to them. They tended, like the editor, to cite Nietzsche, and Marx, while sounding like Obama … but I suppose that’s another post.
So who is caricaturing whom? Are the liberals, progressives, leftists, etc. unpatriotic and allergic to the flag? Are conservatives somehow like national socialists? Is there a “real patriotism”? Does the left really have trouble defining patriotism? Is there something wrong with Webster’s definition?

I think patriotism is like pornography ~ you know it when you see it.
It isn’t something that is done, it is something that is lived because it is what one believes.
It is demonstrated by obeying the laws. Just as others will know we are Christians if we obey God’s commandments, others will know we are American’s if we obey the laws. It is living in the belief of what the founding fathers wrote about human beings having “inalienable rights” to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and the government being “of the people, by the people and for the people.” It is supporting the Bill of Rights for all people, including the right to free speech (including having an opinion), and the freedom to practice ones religion as one sees fit.
If other people only know you are an American because you can only speak one language ~ then it might be said that you aren’t very patriotic.
Now see? THIS is why you should have started blogging a long time ago! I’m not even about to try and insert anything into the discussion except to LOL at Beau’s Sis’ comment that “patriotism is like pornography.” Just wait ’til the NYT gets a hold of that.
I don’t think we should have required mechanisms for expressing patriotism. However, if we’re looking specifically at Obama and the flag incident, which is where my mind goes with the whole discussion, then I think there is value to adhering to the “norm” when it comes to that expression when you’re in the public eye and seeking to be even more so. Especially when you don’t have other overt acts of patriotism that you can point to. I don’t know that anyone would care if McCain stopped wearing a flag pin, because you can’t question his patriotism – he makes it clear even before you notice the jewelry he’s wearing.
I would say that many feel patriotism is something to hide or downplay because by its very nature it is confrontational. To be patriotic is to say that the country you love is better than any other out there. It’s to say that other countries that are not yours are not the best. And in today’s relativistic world where we walk on tiptoes lest we offend, overt patriotism is a gamble the weak aren’t willing to make.
Hey Sis,
Apparently you know what you see when you see it….
And hmmm, obeying the law? Are you suggesting something about civil disobedience, the left and patriotism?
And can you expand on living in the belief of “inalienable” rights? Does that make patriotism substantive?
Gwynne, glad you’re reading, and enjoying it, … but do feel free to jump in among some ol’ friends.
Bully for you Beth! (which isn’t to call you Bully Beth…). But do tell, what about the relativist world that makes us timid, or the relativist U.S.? or just the relativistic MSM and educational system?
And speaking of education, what nut can’t say can’t say that America is better than North Korea and would treat them as equals?
Who’s Tim?
According to the 2nd College edition of the American Heritage dictionary, the definition of patriotism is love of and devotion to one’s country. By this definition, I have no choice but to agree with Beau’s sis & Beth. Like love, patriotism has to be demonstrated to exist; there must be acts of patriotism ie love and devotion to one’s country (before running for office) imho
Hey Barb, thanks for reading. Tim? Oh, I see. The post is now revised. Tim commented on the previous post.
And another sensible comment about patriotism. So what’s the difficulty on the left?
Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been called a bully.
As for relativism making us timid, I’ve seen that the thought process appears to go like this:
-There isn’t an absolute truth
-Thus “my truth” isn’t necessarily true for other people
-I should not inflict “my truth” on others, since their truth is just as valid
-I will keep my opinions to myself or water them down to the point that they’re useless lest I offend by indicating that someone else’s truth is not, in fact, true.
I don’t think it’s a local to the US problem – in fact, I’d say it’s much more advanced as an issue in Europe (look at countries like Sweden – I think it’s Sweden – where euthanasia is not only practiced routinely but not even blinked at and in fact is seen as something that’s done for the good of the culture overall to “reduce the drain on resources” — and that’s just one example in a host of others).
Regardless, I think the problem is now at the point where the media has set a precedent that anyone who stands for truth (real, Biblical truth) can be skewered with impunity – with the simple label of “intolerant”. And this makes the majority of us even more timid. The fact that tolerance as religion has been snapped up by schools and, to a large degree, the church, isn’t helping. So now, even those who might have stood up and been heard if they’d noticed what was going on before now have been cowed and so we teeter on the edge of finding that we’re not able to express Truth at all.
What I find fascinating about the idea of patriotism is how it is currently based on what people perceive the “rights” are of the American people. The irony is that the “rights” currently talked about are not in the Constitution of the US of A. They were, in fact, the “rights” of the citizens of the USSR in their Constitutions of 1936 and 1977. Rights to: universal paid higher education, education taught in the native language, retirement benefits, maternity leave, daycare, **separation of church and state** (the US has the right “of religion” NOT “separation of church and state” ~ that is from the USSR).
And the newest fad here in the US that Beth discussed is also covered: “Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited”. Oh, and this one is so timely now with global warming: “Citizens of the USSR are obliged to protect nature and conserve its riches.”
Looking this over, and hearing what a certain Presidential candidate is promoting, it makes me wonder if I’m still in the USA or have been quatum leaped to the USSR pre-1989.
The first needful thing to do would be to determine to which constitution one is patriotic.
Of course they also had “Marriage is based on the free consent of the woman and the man” so they weren’t completely off-base!
I love how our Constitution does not demand patriotism, dutiful behavior, and obligations, unlike the old USSR. A truly free people has the right to chose how they will demonstrate their patriotism or not demonstrate it. (To wear the pin or not to wear the pin, that is the question)
A comparative read between the constitutions of the USA and the USSR is an enlightening one. Check it out.
What great comments! It seems your fundamental question here is, why does the Left have a problem with patriotism?
I’m sure relativism, as Beth mentioned, is at the root. By not accepting Truth as truth, it is difficult to uphold our core values (those of our Founding Fathers) as something worth fighting for without becoming embarrassed and ashamed, afraid of hurting someone’s feelings, afraid of being called…An American. That’s a dirty word in most of Europe and the Middle East.
And “feelings” is also part of the problem because let’s face it, many on the Left are more worried about protecting feelings than upholding the Truth. They are embarrassed and ashamed to be Americans first, afraid to be viewed as imposing our Ways on others, afraid of being outted for not being tolerant, even of the intolerable.
As for patriots being called nationalists or worse, imperialists, this is just name calling in most instances, meant to disarm the opponent, nothing more. To some, there is a fine line between “love of country” and “love of country above all else, right or wrong, to the exlusion of all others.” To others, the difference is a huge chasm. Perhaps if we didn’t hide behind so many “isms,” it wouldn’t be so easy to throw stones.
At least that’s my opinion.
Beth, I like your comments and agree with them for the most part. However, being patriotic doesn’t necessarily mean you think your country is the best. I think you can be patriotic about your country because you identify with the people and feel a personal connection with the country. For example, I think few people in Iraq right now think it is the best country in the world, but I’m sure there are more than those few who are patriotic.
As far as who I am… I’ve been reading Lintefiniel Musings, back when it was known as Jen Speaks, for a few years; I just never said much over there. I used to have the blog ‘Be Quiet…so I can talk’, but I ended that one a while ago and just started a new one.
Tim, I remember you!
Wow! many comments…. can I keep up? I hope so, because I’ve posting asking for more from the seven….
Hmmmm, Beth’s and Sis’s comments make me think that maybe I’ll have to post on Truth. The problem may be the truth about America. Or maybe about the Constitution.
And Sis, with all the good things in the Soviet Constitution, who wouldn’t like it? The Russians are good at writing nice sounding constitutions. I once heard a Russian student say the only problem with the current one was the fact that all the judges were corrupt….
Tim, hmmmm. I patriotism in Iraq, hmmm. Not my country right or wrong, but shia or sunni?
And is there a difference between best and best for me? for Iraqis?
Dude,
I’m waiting for the discussion on Truth, because how we see Truth defines our world view. I think that that is the problem with the Left. Or, that the difference between the religious right and the left is their ideas of what Truth is. I don’t know much about politics. You tell me. Do I have it wrong? For example, my Truth says God exists and is the intelligence behind the design. The left says: God, no God, both can be true; my truth is different from you truth….Any thoughts?
Truth! You want Truth! You can’t handle … oh wait, never mind. What was I thinking?
So you want God in this discussion of politics? Well it may prove impossible to keep Him out of it. He’s a big topic. For now I’ll talk about sweaters. Later we might see something about Left and Right dividing about patriotism and God…. So for now see, Jimmy Carter Wore a Sweater.
Truth or Truths, that is the question.
Truth or Truths? Well, yes, today that is how it’s phrased. An older way might be, Truth or opinions (which can be true or false).