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	<title>Comments on: Church and State Habits</title>
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	<description>... about faith, politics, and whatever else comes to mind</description>
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		<title>By: beauspeaks</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-213</link>
		<dc:creator>beauspeaks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-213</guid>
		<description>Hey Denis, I just CAN&#039;T BELIEVE you don&#039;t agree with me! ;)

Well, I suppose I could be clearer.... :sigh:

I just sometimes wonder whether moral relativism doesn&#039;t infect our thinking, however much we may be against it.  The culture influences us.  

Even the practice of voting influences us.  Each vote counts equally.  I say that&#039;s because no one among us has a right to rule our lives without consent--though God has a right to rule as he pleases.  

But just as I think the practice of &quot;separation of church and state&quot; can be infected with moral relativism so too I might wonder about the practice of voting can be infected with moral relativism.  So I might wonder whether equal votes doesn&#039;t get twisted to give some support to the idea that every idea is equally valid.  

But you seem to understand this perfectly well--that some opinions may be better than another, and God&#039;s approval is best of all.  So you seem to understand my point well enough and maybe I wasnt&#039; too confusing..... ?

If we&#039;re serious that God&#039;s law is paramount, we&#039;re being political; we&#039;re engaging the popular deliberation about the public good.  But if we somehow think that preaching God&#039;s Word is not political, is separate from the state, then we&#039;ve been infected with the moral relativism that says beliefs about &quot;values&quot; aren&#039;t factual and true or false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Denis, I just CAN&#8217;T BELIEVE you don&#8217;t agree with me! <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Well, I suppose I could be clearer&#8230;. :sigh:</p>
<p>I just sometimes wonder whether moral relativism doesn&#8217;t infect our thinking, however much we may be against it.  The culture influences us.  </p>
<p>Even the practice of voting influences us.  Each vote counts equally.  I say that&#8217;s because no one among us has a right to rule our lives without consent&#8211;though God has a right to rule as he pleases.  </p>
<p>But just as I think the practice of &#8220;separation of church and state&#8221; can be infected with moral relativism so too I might wonder about the practice of voting can be infected with moral relativism.  So I might wonder whether equal votes doesn&#8217;t get twisted to give some support to the idea that every idea is equally valid.  </p>
<p>But you seem to understand this perfectly well&#8211;that some opinions may be better than another, and God&#8217;s approval is best of all.  So you seem to understand my point well enough and maybe I wasnt&#8217; too confusing&#8230;.. ?</p>
<p>If we&#8217;re serious that God&#8217;s law is paramount, we&#8217;re being political; we&#8217;re engaging the popular deliberation about the public good.  But if we somehow think that preaching God&#8217;s Word is not political, is separate from the state, then we&#8217;ve been infected with the moral relativism that says beliefs about &#8220;values&#8221; aren&#8217;t factual and true or false.</p>
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		<title>By: denis</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>denis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-212</guid>
		<description>I can understand every word you &quot;penned&quot; and maybe it&#039;s the fact that it&#039;s close to my bed time but you seem to be operating on another plain than me most of the time -- especially here. I do like reading your arguments even if I don&#039;t always agree with them. That’s why this country is great. You’re a political science major and know this stuff inside out and my vote counts equally to yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can understand every word you &#8220;penned&#8221; and maybe it&#8217;s the fact that it&#8217;s close to my bed time but you seem to be operating on another plain than me most of the time &#8212; especially here. I do like reading your arguments even if I don&#8217;t always agree with them. That’s why this country is great. You’re a political science major and know this stuff inside out and my vote counts equally to yours.</p>
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		<title>By: beauspeaks</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>beauspeaks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-206</guid>
		<description>Yes, as believers we need to &quot;clean house&quot;; we need to get the lie out of our own souls.  Then speaking the truth can make a difference wherever we are, in the &quot;church&quot; or in public or at home.... 

As with the kings of Israel, leaders make can mislead, and make the people to sin. (I Kings 16)  The way back, however, seems to be another question.

Successful reform is a blessing.  Like Homer said, &quot;tis man&#039;s to fight, but heaven&#039;s to give success.&quot;  We can do our best, we can fight the lie, but God must give the blessing of reform. 

So like Paul says, pray for our leaders; pray for bold preaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, as believers we need to &#8220;clean house&#8221;; we need to get the lie out of our own souls.  Then speaking the truth can make a difference wherever we are, in the &#8220;church&#8221; or in public or at home&#8230;. </p>
<p>As with the kings of Israel, leaders make can mislead, and make the people to sin. (I Kings 16)  The way back, however, seems to be another question.</p>
<p>Successful reform is a blessing.  Like Homer said, &#8220;tis man&#8217;s to fight, but heaven&#8217;s to give success.&#8221;  We can do our best, we can fight the lie, but God must give the blessing of reform. </p>
<p>So like Paul says, pray for our leaders; pray for bold preaching.</p>
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		<title>By: beth</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-205</guid>
		<description>Oh absolutely there&#039;s more we can and should be doing - but I believe we&#039;ve reached a point where before we can really start making a difference in the culture (as a body of believers) we need to first clean house and get the church back on track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh absolutely there&#8217;s more we can and should be doing &#8211; but I believe we&#8217;ve reached a point where before we can really start making a difference in the culture (as a body of believers) we need to first clean house and get the church back on track.</p>
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		<title>By: beauspeaks</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-204</link>
		<dc:creator>beauspeaks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-204</guid>
		<description>Hey Beth, perhaps you&#039;re right.  

Maybe it would be better to say that moral relativism &quot;has crept&quot; instead of creeping.  After all, the creeping has been done since the 1950s.  (Yes, I have discovered my error; the law goes back beyond the 1960s to 1954.)  So the moral relativism has been done for more than half a century.  

Still, it can get worse.... we can cave completely and no longer speak at all, not even of &quot;personal&quot; beliefs.  We can praise immorality.  We can lie to ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Beth, perhaps you&#8217;re right.  </p>
<p>Maybe it would be better to say that moral relativism &#8220;has crept&#8221; instead of creeping.  After all, the creeping has been done since the 1950s.  (Yes, I have discovered my error; the law goes back beyond the 1960s to 1954.)  So the moral relativism has been done for more than half a century.  </p>
<p>Still, it can get worse&#8230;. we can cave completely and no longer speak at all, not even of &#8220;personal&#8221; beliefs.  We can praise immorality.  We can lie to ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: beth</title>
		<link>http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/church-and-state-habits/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beauspeaks.wordpress.com/?p=316#comment-203</guid>
		<description>Moral relativism isn&#039;t creepING into the church, it has crept in and become embedded. We have become conditioned - we have allowed ourselves to become conditioned - to say &quot;this is what I believe, but I refuse to stand in judgment over what you believe because who am I to say you&#039;re wrong&quot; and in so doing, we have lost our saltiness. 

Consider what it means to be salty. Go beyond the idea of preservation of meat - but consider the taste of pure salt on your tongue. It&#039;s not pleasant. It&#039;s not something that morphs into what you think it should taste like based on what you believe. It&#039;s salt. It tingles. And it&#039;s undeniably exactly what it is. Yet how many of us are willing to look a friend in the eye and say, &quot;What you believe is wrong based on the truth of God and His word, the Bible.&quot; Sure, it&#039;s easier with bigger things like needing Christ for salvation, but even in this we hedge, lest we offend those who follow Islam or Budda. But it&#039;s harder - yet necessary - to look someone in the eye and ask how they justify placing economic or foreign policy, things not important to the Kingdom, over something as basic as the sanctity of life. And yet, that&#039;s exactly what so many people who claim Christ just did...with the &quot;justification&quot; that we &quot;can&#039;t afford to be single issue voters.&quot;

We&#039;re so worried about offending our brothers and possibly turning them away from God, that we would rather offend God and risk bringing His wrath upon our heads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moral relativism isn&#8217;t creepING into the church, it has crept in and become embedded. We have become conditioned &#8211; we have allowed ourselves to become conditioned &#8211; to say &#8220;this is what I believe, but I refuse to stand in judgment over what you believe because who am I to say you&#8217;re wrong&#8221; and in so doing, we have lost our saltiness. </p>
<p>Consider what it means to be salty. Go beyond the idea of preservation of meat &#8211; but consider the taste of pure salt on your tongue. It&#8217;s not pleasant. It&#8217;s not something that morphs into what you think it should taste like based on what you believe. It&#8217;s salt. It tingles. And it&#8217;s undeniably exactly what it is. Yet how many of us are willing to look a friend in the eye and say, &#8220;What you believe is wrong based on the truth of God and His word, the Bible.&#8221; Sure, it&#8217;s easier with bigger things like needing Christ for salvation, but even in this we hedge, lest we offend those who follow Islam or Budda. But it&#8217;s harder &#8211; yet necessary &#8211; to look someone in the eye and ask how they justify placing economic or foreign policy, things not important to the Kingdom, over something as basic as the sanctity of life. And yet, that&#8217;s exactly what so many people who claim Christ just did&#8230;with the &#8220;justification&#8221; that we &#8220;can&#8217;t afford to be single issue voters.&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;re so worried about offending our brothers and possibly turning them away from God, that we would rather offend God and risk bringing His wrath upon our heads.</p>
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